Power Electronics Tips xe2x86xa9

[melko]

I think you miss my point, back in the 80s it seems TG and Whitehouse , the name is a clue, et al. set out to shock.

As far as I understand, your point is this...

Ancient times:
- The public is mad at genuine asshollery.
- The public is also mad at asshollery specifically produced to make the public mad.

Modern times:.
- The public is mad at genuine asshollery.
- The public is not anymore mad at asshollery specifically produced to make the public mad.

Do I misunderstand?

[JLIAT]

I think you miss my point, back in the 80s it seems TG and Whitehouse , the name is a clue, et al. set out to shock.

As far as I understand, your point is this...

Ancient times:
- The public is mad at genuine asshollery.
- The public is also mad at asshollery specifically produced to make the public mad.

Modern times:.
- The public is mad at genuine asshollery.
- The public is not anymore mad at asshollery specifically produced to make the public mad.

Do I misunderstand?

Close.

Modernity:

The Avant garde was at times shocking to the established orthodoxy, garnering publicity.
Therefore to be shocking was considered by some to be avant garde.
The established orthodoxies social mores re certain prescribed acts did not mean all those in the establishment adhered to them.
The Avant garde seeing this hypocrisy presented but did not perform these violations both to shock and critique this hypocrisy.

Post Modernity:

The established orthodoxies enshrine the moral critique of the once avant garde. Are the once avant garde. Which within liberal frameworks see a reasonableness and tolerance allowing a certain diversity.

Not withstanding there have always been radical fundamentalists, criminals, rapists, child molesters and anti social groups.

[NoiseWiki]

Also when exposed to shocking material the viewer will become desensitized to it.

The biggest problem with the use of shocking material is when the person using it is doing so with shallow knowledge of why and are just imitating or going for a quick reaction.

I've cornered a particular pe maker I know on this and their simplistic justification was "it's art".

One does not have to be an academic to explain what they are doing but when one is clearly riding on the coattails of what many others have done and is quite obviously inspired by other more well established artists the least they could do is grunt more than a three word justification for their art.

[melko]

Also when exposed to shocking material the viewer will become desensitized to it.

Yes, but the viewer in 1980 and the viewer in 2020 are not the same person.

[melko]

Modernity:

The Avant garde was at times shocking to the established orthodoxy, garnering publicity.
Therefore to be shocking was considered by some to be avant garde.
The established orthodoxies social mores re certain prescribed acts did not mean all those in the establishment adhered to them.
The Avant garde seeing this hypocrisy presented but did not perform these violations both to shock and critique this hypocrisy.

Post Modernity:

The established orthodoxies enshrine the moral critique of the once avant garde. Are the once avant garde. Which within liberal frameworks see a reasonableness and tolerance allowing a certain diversity.

Not withstanding there have always been radical fundamentalists, criminals, rapists, child molesters and anti social groups.

OK, now let me try to apply this to your previous statement.

Whilst originally Fascism was used to provoke, it seems others in PE are genuinely fascist. The provocation now no longer shocking, the use of PE as an expression of Fascism (et al) though remains viable. (and not concerned with knowledge as much a power via action...?)

This is what I get:

Originally: fascism was used by the avantgarde artists to criticize the covert fascism of the establishment.
Now: the establishment embraces being criticized for its covert fascism, so avantgarde artists are no longer able to use fascism as a way to criticize the covert fascism of the establishment?

Not debating anything, just trying get a better grasp of what you're saying.

[NoiseWiki]

Also when exposed to shocking material the viewer will become desensitized to it.

Yes, but the viewer in 1980 and the viewer in 2020 are not the same person.

I dunno about you but in my case I was alive in 1980 and 2020.

As PT Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute but even if there are new viewers they will equalize to whatever is considered normal that used to be shocking without questioning it. Y'know nature vs nurture. The environment one is raised will have some impact on what one considers shocking or whatever.

I didn't watch the above video but sure specific references may not be understood or considered funny by a younger generation but I've rewatched many things over the years that I appreciated on one level when I was younger and another when I was older.

Okay watched the clip.. heh uh yeah the drugging a woman to take advantage of her would not be cool in this day in age. It used to be that those kind of jokes weren't shocking because comedy audiences were desensitized to sexist humor... times have changed.

[FAP]

1. Don't wear a shirt
2. Buy an expensive synth
3. Scream into a microphone: optional subject matter may or may not include pedophiles, nazis, religion, death, BDSM, politics, etc.
4.
5. Profit*
*only if scouted/signed by Hospital Records

[RUBBISH]

1. Don't wear a shirt
2. Buy an expensive synth
3. Scream into a microphone: optional subject matter may or may not include pedophiles, nazis, religion, death, BDSM, politics, etc.
4.
5. Profit*
*only if scouted/signed by Hospital Records

4. Black and white art related to previously mentioned subject matter.

[JLIAT]

Also when exposed to shocking material the viewer will become desensitized to it.

Yes, but the viewer in 1980 and the viewer in 2020 are not the same person.

Admin is correct, many people from the 80s are still alive. One needs to consider this if one is to get serious, in a wider historical context. The attitudes of the 20thC in the west in part in the avant garde was towards 19thC capitalism, labour exploitation, and Victorian moral values, and the supposed hypocrisy. Go back then and before = public executions, churches used for markets and sex, child labour etc.

Also, I've got into those reaction to videos, mainly pop music. Queen, Led Zep.... general comments WOW. How many here often resort to Monty Python sketches?

[JLIAT]

This is what I get:

Originally: fascism was used by the avantgarde artists to criticize the covert fascism of the establishment.

Not what I said.

The Avant Garde often shocked. Note the word xe2x80x9coftenxe2x80x9d - not always!
Some (note the term some) associated shock with being avant garde. Though they get this wrong, the shock is from the wor-k, not its reason to be. It isn't automatic that shocking an audience is avant garde.

I didn't say the the establishment was covertly fascist. I'm not sure you can say this. A side issue, but politics is generally overt by nature. There was a perceived hypocrisy by some towards Victorian mores of the establishment.

Following WW2 facism was by many seen as bad in the western democracys and elsewhere. Notably the germans Vs the Jews.

Now: the establishment embraces being criticized for its covert fascism, so avantgarde artists are no longer able to use fascism as a way to criticize the covert fascism of the establishment?

Not debating anything, just trying get a better grasp of what you're saying.

Then with respect you should maybe read what i'm actually saying, though perhaps not clearly!

By the late 70s the establishment had taken on the liberalism of the 60s to an extent, (to an extent! There was still a class divide and racism, sexism, but no longer open and by liberals seen as wrong...) from the 60s onwards hanging in the UK stopped, Homosexuality made legal, many other issues, greater freedom of the press, film and arts. Notably seen in such things as the Lady Chatterly trial, The Theatres Act 1968, Civil rights movements... in the UK women gained greater freedoms, (NO not total and yes still not equal!)

So by the 80s the avant garde (edit- probably no longer a functioning avant garde) became the general neo-liberalism of post-modernity...

So Whitehouse adopts the opposite to this movement to provoke and shock a by now 'liberal' audience... and get publicity in doing so. And sure some in the audience maybe got a thrill from this, and maybe some liked the idea of committing such violence..

My question to you, at least the third time, did this original provocation become real and serious to Whitehouse as it seems to be in some bands in PE that followed. Maybe you know, I wasn't into PE at the time...



And the child rap-e / murder jewish extermination, used by PE bands, together with nutsy politics. The two don't seem (SEEM) to have much in common other than being generally beyond the pale for neo-liberals .


So whilst this in PE might be a critique of Neo-liberalism, or for show publicity is in in some cases much more, as an extreme right wing political attitude to a perceived evil global politics? inhumanity...

I think there is a lacuna there. Maybe you can help me with this? how can a serious commitment to fascism - or whatever its called - ideology (for I assume perceived good intentions) square with child sex abuse murder and genocide in PE?