HNW question

[JLIAT]

if you popped into your local coffee shop and jacked in some HNW to the sound system, i fucking guarantee every single person there would find meaning in it, not one person would state "it was meaningless, i felt nothing, i was not moved", at the very least its going to activate your fight or flight mechanism

No different to seeing pictures of castles in the clouds, they are not there, they are in your head. Signs in tea leaves. Omens in the weather...

: - ) its a face. Well no its not. Its a colon dash and bracket.

[JLIAT]

Richard Williams, who had been given two single-sided test pressings for his Melody Maker review of John and Yokoxe2x80x99s Wedding Album, each with a blank side featuring only an engineer's test signal, took it to be a double album. Reviewing it as such, he noted that sides two and four consisted entirely "of single tones maintained throughout, presumably produced electronically". This led Lennon and Ono to send the following telegram to Williams:


DEAR RICHARD THANK YOU FOR YOUR FANTASTIC REVIEW ON OUR WEDDING ALBUM INCLUDING C-AND-D SIDES. WE ARE CONSIDERING IT FOR OUR NEXT RELEASE. MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT IN SAYING THAT THEY ARE THE BEST SIDES STOP WE BOTH FEEL THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A CRITIC TOPPED THE ARTIST. WE ARE NOT JOKING. LOVE AND PEACE STOP JOHN AND YOKO LENNON.

Williams got it - the meaning of the two sides of test signals, wrong.

[NoiseWiki]

We've gone through this all before. The problem arises with the term 'meaning'. One can assign meaning to anything. Using the term 'represent' is I think better. The word 'red' represents the colour. The sentence "The rose is red" represents a thing, which is red. "The rose is red" has a meaning - it represents something. In this case the thing it represents has no representational meaning.
Unlike the red rose of Lancaster. Representational art, does much the same, non representational art does not represent anything

Sure we have but that hasn't stopped anybody here from rehashing it in the past or will in the future.. there's also a phrase called moving the goal posts.

Reframing art or music as needing to be "representational" is pretty much bullshit at this point in time.. imo.. it's out the window.. being representational is no longer a requirement for communication in art. There is already a mountain of bullshit one can use to explain why their pile of trash or noise in the museum means something.

[NoiseWiki]

Williams got it - the meaning of the two sides of test signals, wrong.

WE BOTH FEEL THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A CRITIC TOPPED THE ARTIST. WE ARE NOT JOKING.

Yet the artists think he got it right.

Also there is no rule that message has to be understood in order for there to be "communication"

"the imparting or exchanging of information or news"

You sent me 01010010100101001010 .. it was received.. communication achieved!

[cultofthesunmachine]

So what does a Vomir HNW represent... nothing.

i thought it was meaningless?

Can it be seen to do so, yes.

wrong, you said it cant communicate

Just as the stain on the ceiling represent Jesus.

it may be interpreted as an image of jesus but it only represents a stain

"I think it's pretty hard to create art and not communicate " 01010010100101001010 = what?

goofy, it equals you typing zeros and ones for effect, pedantry

[NoiseWiki]

: - ) its a face. Well no its not. Its a colon dash and bracket.

Most likely evolved out of somebody noticing that the combo of those characters looked like a face and now the younger generation is communicating emotions almost entirely with them.

[¾ dead]

Looks like I opened a can of harsh noise worms here!

Sure!

What I find hard to follow is the HNW guys who would rather it be considered as a very minor sub genre of no consequence other than pleasure for a few, rather than a fundamental critique of any art dependant on sound, i.e. a fundamentally revolutionary move.

That given the notion of Duchamp's Urinal they set about making an art based on sanitary products.

It's always been my assertion that we common, over-fed-and-under-nourished non-academics are products of a "rootless" (don't take me out of context, pls), post-art, post-intellectual era. We really do believe we've got "IT" all figured out when it comes to modern society and human psychology. It's just a matter of finding your niche from there. Everything's been done. While things changed in the wake of revolutionary artistic movements, the same so-called revolutionary art movements proved to be just as exploitable as any "mere" movement, once everyone acclimated to the changes. Nothing's really changed but the trends.

Noise is pop because it is simply another feature of the pop-cultural landscape at this point. It's not something impenetrable, academic, "avant-garde", etc. It's been stripped of any need for academic/artistic/transcendental justifications like everything else. Everything that can be observed can also be dissected and distilled into a wash of individualist pop-cultural NOISE. "Art" has been taken to its logical extreme, both commercially and academically. So what's left to do? Find your niche. Exploit your niche. "YOLO". "You do you". Status quo. Wait for the next big thing ("reversion", traditionalism, etc. versus the avant-garde). People don't keep progressing in one direction beyond a certain point. They either die on one particular hill, or they go down the other side of it and up another one.

"Art" can attempt to communicate a lot of things, but there's nothing particularly challenging or extreme left in terms of approach (don't do anything illegal!) for your average jaded post-Y2K/post-Internet consumer who is not rooted in neurotically rigid, Eurocentric academic circles, and has little to no musical heritage or training. Technology will decide the direction of TRUE, NEW ART (as opposed to new or revolving trends within the arts) more than any tradition or culture that still remains will. Until then, most of us are perfectly content with noise, EDM, Americanized Chinese food, hot dogs, cartoons, etc. as very minor diversions of no consequence other than pleasure for a few.

[JLIAT]

if you popped into your local coffee shop and jacked in some HNW to the sound system, i fucking guarantee every single person there would find meaning in it, not one person would state "it was meaningless, i felt nothing, i was not moved", at the very least its going to activate your fight or flight mechanism

Good thought experiment.

My guess is most would say, if played at any volume, what a horrible noise, a racket! And quickly leave. They would physically move away from it, as it would sound harmful. They would find not meaning, just an emotional response to a din. To noise.
Ask what is means, they would say - xe2x80x9cnothing xe2x80x93 its just horrible noisexe2x80x9d. And dictionaries which give common usage give xe2x80x9c"a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance. random fluctuations that obscure or do not contain meaningful data or other information."

So we are spot on for the aims of the HNWs such a Vomir. Now we might find a few, one or two customers who remain, enduring the high volume noise, some saying they like it, some nodding, swaying too and fro in 'appreciation'. Finding it cathartic. Even to the extent of it causing physical damage, whereas the majority eschew self harm. There are people who do deliberately self harm, and an example on the forum... and maybe another small number of customers might find it intriguing.

So your thought experiment maybe captures quite well the phenomenon of HNW.

[JLIAT]

it right.

Also there is no rule that message has to be understood in order for there to be "communication"

Yes there is, ergo "communication breakdown" - which for you andcultofthesunmachine is impossible. Maybe you are using the word in a non standard way?

Communication (from Latin communicare, meaning "to share") is the act of conveying meanings from one entity or group to another through the use of mutually understood signs, symbols, and semiotic rules.

Common usage, but maybe not yours. Maybe that's why we cant share a meaningful dialogue over this idea of communication, .


Re representational art, from what i've seen its all the rage, from anti fascism, feminism, anti racism, anti colonialism (the current show in the turbine hall) LBGT, anti capitalism, and environmentalism. The arts have become politicised by the activists of the left to an extreme where i doubt a merely aesthetc object would be acceptable.

[JLIAT]

It's always been my assertion that we common, over-fed-and-under-nourished non-academics are products of a "rootless" (don't take me out of context, pls), post-art, post-intellectual era. We really do believe we've got "IT" all figured out when it comes to modern society and human psychology. It's just a matter of finding your niche from there. Everything's been done. While things changed in the wake of revolutionary artistic movements, the same so-called revolutionary art movements proved to be just as exploitable as any "mere" movement, once everyone acclimated to the changes. Nothing's really changed but the trends.

Noise is pop because it is simply another feature of the pop-cultural landscape at this point. It's not something impenetrable, academic, "avant-garde", etc. It's been stripped of any need for academic/artistic/transcendental justifications like everything else. Everything that can be observed can also be dissected and distilled into a wash of individualist pop-cultural NOISE. "Art" has been taken to its logical extreme, both commercially and academically. So what's left to do? Find your niche. Exploit your niche. "YOLO". "You do you". Status quo. Wait for the next big thing ("reversion", traditionalism, etc. versus the avant-garde). People don't keep progressing in one direction beyond a certain point. They either die on one particular hill, or they go down the other side of it and up another one.

"Art" can attempt to communicate a lot of things, but there's nothing particularly challenging or extreme left in terms of approach (don't do anything illegal!) for your average jaded post-Y2K/post-Internet consumer who is not rooted in neurotically rigid, Eurocentric academic circles, and has little to no musical heritage or training. Technology will decide the direction of TRUE, NEW ART (as opposed to new or revolving trends within the arts) more than any tradition or culture that still remains will. Until then, most of us are perfectly content with noise, EDM, Americanized Chinese food, hot dogs, cartoons, etc. as very minor diversions of no consequence other than pleasure for a few.

I think there is much i'd agree with the theme of your post, but if I may, as they say 'riff' with some terms, ideas...

xe2x80x9cNoise is pop because it is simply another feature of the pop-cultural landscape at this point. xe2x80x9c

Then you remove the notion of pop being popular. Which in post modernity, post Beatles might be true an extent. But I think not, there is still popular music, Taylor Swift, Rap, or whatever its now called xe2x80x93 grime, EDM and Metal. Drift around HMV (record store) and you will see these categories, and now massive of vinyl xe2x80x93 from the 60s onwards, the future is the past, everything is retro, is another issue. But you wont see Noise. It's not popular, in that sense. As a feature of the pop-cultural landscape its hard for many to see. Classical music is much more pop in that case.


xe2x80x9cIt's been stripped of any need for academic/artistic/transcendental justifications like everything else. xe2x80x9c

Back in the early 2000s noise was dominant in academic circles, the next big thing along with Speculative Realism, a fake / false "philosophical" movement. Pop music is now firmly on the academic curriculae in UK universities. And you will find noise covered there. All backed by the use of misunderstood philosophy. (how do I know - actually read whole books over the past 25 years or more)

This next bit relates to these xe2x80x9cacademicsxe2x80x9d. Scare quotes. Most humanities departments are staffed by Marxists, who on excellent salaries preach the evil of capitalism, as does Luke, Social Drift, here, whilst enjoying the fruits thereof. From the likes of Terry Eagleton, Marxist who owns 3 very nice houses, Zizek, who enjoys business class travel and 5 star Hotels. Zizek is the lefts darling, writes massive books on Hegel and Lacan. The only trouble is in his case and many no academic critique is found. He, and others can make outrageous and incorrect statements and no one bothers. He can write so much thanks to Mr Amphetamine.. The erect penis is the square root of -1. (Lacan) And 'is' not a metaphor. These 'academics' cite Hegel, Derrida, Deleuze, Badiou, and others because they have to. It amazed me years ago how they could, given only a few years study, given the impenetrable nature of these texts. Of course they haven't read or understood them, anymore than the science the spout, Morton claiming his theory proved the impossibility of the Higgs particle, six months before its discovery. No matter, with the humanities there are givens that are never challenged. Oh, I have challenged, and seldom get invited back. So they puzzle and laugh over xe2x80x9cThe Night in which all cows are blackxe2x80x9d- its Hegel taking the piss of Schelling. Or a Phd student trying to explain Badiou's Ontology which is (nonsense) set theory, admitting to me he hadn't a clue. I'm going on too much, but the state of the Arts Vs academics is full of frauds looking to avoid work, spouting nonsense. I could give example after example but you like most probably aren't bothered. When an xe2x80x9cacademicxe2x80x9d talks of the xe2x80x9cPlane of Immanencexe2x80x9d (Deleuze) xe2x80x93 i'd ask which one? Puzzled look? Or xe2x80x9cImage of thoughtxe2x80x9d - which one, the good one or the bad one? Or that Heidegger said gravity didn't exist before Newton (Morton) not true! Or bacteria didn't exist before Louis Pasteur (Latour)... In short the Humanities are now staffed (mainly) with fuckwits.

Finally (I doubt it) there will be no new true art. Because the Dialectic is broken. That is the current state of xe2x80x9cLate Capitalismxe2x80x9d as its called, I now prefer since 12/12/2019 xe2x80x9cPost Socialismxe2x80x9d.
The activists, bringers of the Antithesis cannot overcome the current Thesis (LC / PS) for one they are not strong enough, for two they are dependent, parasitic on it.

Summary, I like the tenor of your post, I think its far far worse in that its all fake.


God I enjoyed that!