HNW question

[NoiseWiki]

Why? You can represent other things with words or with pictures. Or even cine film! See the film represents something else, this other thing might also, actors.

Right and you can represent "meaninglessness" by putting out an HNW release. The noise represents the meaninglessness. The noise is the signifier just the same as red paint can signify a rose.

The action has a meaning, an intention but the product of the act does not.

You can't have a product without an action.

[NoiseWiki]

They are drawn from what you have said, and nothing to the contrary. Ergo you "maintain" meaninglessness is impossible. Maybe you cant SAY so. Or do not want to say so. I think I can understand why that is.

I did not maintain any such thing.. you maintain to put words in my mouth because it is your only recourse.

You certainly now see Vomir as a bit of a failure or ignorant of what he was doing, surely? He said of his HNW - "no point".

No.. I have reason to believe he is a prankster and you are his dupe.. he is successful just not in the way you are maintaining.

It's unlikely but since you maintain that what the artist says goes.. it would be hilarious if at some point he turned around and said.. actually "HNW means everything to me.. psyche! " .. then would you be like "oh well I guess HNW does have meaning after all"?

[JLIAT]

Why? You can represent other things with words or with pictures. Or even cine film! See the film represents something else, this other thing might also, actors.

Right and you can represent "meaninglessness" by putting out an HNW release.

Sure, but with issues. So you can produce HNW which represents nothing, or just 'is'. Like lots of abstract art! Non representation is well known in art. Though in order for your representation to work you might need some text or such. And really it would then be an example of meaninglessness. A representation of a murder is not the same as an example.

So represent "depict (a particular subject) " might it better to say 'present' the actual thing, an example of the actual thing.

The action has a meaning, an intention but the product of the act does not.

You can't have a product without an action.

And the product can be nonsense.

Edit: So what produced the big bang? Vomir?

[NoiseWiki]

Non representation is well known in art. Though in order for your representation to work you might need some text or such.

Sure but even with text there are still plenty of people who think non representational art.. abstract art is not art at all.

A representation of a murder is not the same as an example.

And neither is an abstraction.

So represent "depict (a particular subject) " might it better to say 'present' the actual thing, an example of the actual thing.

So are you now in the camp of art is not as good as reality?

I would find it fascinating if listening to HNW or whatever literally blanked my mind but that is not what happens.

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And the product can be nonsense.

But nonsense and meaningless aren't the same thing.

According to this it's not even a synonym of meaninglessness
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/nonsense

[JLIAT]

So are you now in the camp of art is not as good as reality?

Nope.

I would find it fascinating if listening to HNW or whatever literally blanked my mind but that is not what happens.

Well that's the nature of the human mind. Best not to actually listen. As I said at the start. The human mind is addicted to meaning.
Ergo religion, THIS has to mean something! WHY?

And the product can be nonsense.

But nonsense and meaningless aren't the same thing.

According to this it's not even a synonym of meaninglessness
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/nonsense

As you said words are tricky and in discussing this kind of stuff I think care is needed. You are right its not there. But if you look up "meaning" you get "sense" as a synonym.

[NoiseWiki]

Well that's the nature of the human mind. Best not to actually listen. As I said at the start. The human mind is addicted to meaning.
Ergo religion, THIS has to mean something! WHY?

Well I guess one could say "meaning" is a human construct which is why I have said things like it's impossible for a human to "do" anything without meaning. But to be clear that is not the same as saying "everything has meaning".. as if there is a god that gives everything meaning.

Our existence may be "pointless" but in our bubble of perception we assign meanings to what might ultimately only be the traces of a meaningless existence.

As you said words are tricky and in discussing this kind of stuff I think care is needed. You are right its not there. But if you look up "meaning" you get "sense" as a synonym.

But you can hear noise and noise is not words so noise should not be described as "nonsense"

sense: "a faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch."

nonsense: "spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense."

[NoiseWiki]

THIS has to mean something! WHY?

We observe that things have properties and we've developed various was to describe those things. Those descriptions have meanings. We use words, actions and concepts to convey those meanings. There is a word for expressing meaninglessness, there is art for expressing meaninglessness and there is sound ("HNW") for expressing meaninglessness.

And I guess part of the drive is making a connection outside that bubble.. is there life out there besides planet earth. We evolved with powerful pattern recognition built in so anything can appear to contain data even when it does not. We listen to that noise from deep space to see if there is another person behind it.. so I say when a person puts out a noise then they are communicating even if what they are communicating is the concept of "meaninglessness" or "pointlessness".

You were joking earlier about silence and to me really the better way to express meaningless would be silence. But I think using noise is more appealing because it can be loud, aggressive, it has texture and can be complex.

And of course Cage made a statement about how silence is not even silent.

There is no such thing as an empty space or an empty time. There is always something to see, something to hear. In fact, try as we may to make a silence, we cannot.

If HNW is really meaninglessness it should be impossible to talk about .. how has something so pointless been talked about so much. There should be no such thing as a review of HNW. What is there to say if it is actually and truly "meaningless"?

Also reminds me of the scene in Ghostbusters where Gozer asks them to pick the form of the Destructor and they try to clear their minds and not choose one yet....

[JLIAT]

Well that's the nature of the human mind. Best not to actually listen. As I said at the start. The human mind is addicted to meaning.
Ergo religion, THIS has to mean something! WHY?

Well I guess one could say "meaning" is a human construct which is why I have said things like it's impossible for a human to "do" anything without meaning. But to be clear that is not the same as saying "everything has meaning".. as if there is a god that gives everything meaning.

It's not the same, but to say a thing cannot exist, 'be', without it having meaning is. And I think you have said that.
So maybe you could clear that point up. Is meaning explicit in an object, or is it given by humans. In the latter can a human present something which has no meaning, is nonsense. I say it is. That the act, the intention intends not meaning anything, if that is what the act means, then sure the act has intention, to say it has meaning is for me not precise. But the thing - in itself - is not a signifier, but the product of a deliberate act not to signify. Here I think you maintain its very existence signifies something, a process of its coming to be. If so that makes any object likewise. Being is conflated with meaning, in this case, that existence is the result of some process, gives meaning.

Our existence may be "pointless" but in our bubble of perception we assign meanings to what might ultimately only be the traces of a meaningless existence.

The act of assignment is then an action take, and therefore we can choose not to do so. For me the word 'Dog' has a meaning, actual dogs have existence. Not the same. And the assignment of meaning to everything is an anthropomorphic trait that is the origin of religion.

As you said words are tricky and in discussing this kind of stuff I think care is needed. You are right its not there. But if you look up "meaning" you get "sense" as a synonym.

But you can hear noise and noise is not words so noise should not be described as "nonsense"

Depends what you mean by 'nonsense' . If no sense can be made of it. Here sense isn't just the perception. (Again words) If sense is mere perception, then we can never sense nonsense. But in another use of the word, to make sense of something is to understand it. If we conflate these two meanings, we end up with thinking all sensation has understanding. Again if we locate the understanding in the object of perception and not in our minds, we imbue phenomena with understanding, and meaning.

As an aside, we have this long discussion, regarding meaning, and the world, its origin a question re HNW. So to anyone else reading this !!!!! Whilst many dismiss HNW, or want to turn it into music, it has and does raise profound ideas. More than just entertainment.

sense: "a faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch."

nonsense: "spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense."

Yes - my point. Words are tricky. And you forgot to include "a way in which an expression or a situation can be interpreted; a meaning." - You naughty boy.

[NoiseWiki]

And you forgot to include "a way in which an expression or a situation can be interpreted; a meaning." - You naughty boy.

Right so the listener is free to doubt Vomir and not take the statement "No Point" seriously. If there really was no point, then why is he doing it, why the trash bag, why the release, why the live performances, why all the talking about it. etc.

[JLIAT]

And you forgot to include "a way in which an expression or a situation can be interpreted; a meaning." - You naughty boy.

Right so the listener is free to doubt Vomir and not take the statement "No Point" seriously. If there really was no point, then why is he doing it, why the trash bag, why the release, why the live performances, why all the talking about it. etc.

You or anyone is free to interpret art or anything anyway they wish. Charles Manson, its said, interpreted The Beatles Helter Skelter and an incitement to provoke a race war... etc. And you are not obliged to figure out the why.

I think in the case of Vomir the statements and performance however makes more sense in a explanation that accepts his statements. And builds on them. His negative refusals, chime with elements of Minimalism. The denial in his case of the tropes of 'music'. Which at the start of this I mentioned, as in duration being unimportant. (That there is duration not withstanding). As others have said, the need even to hear some noise works. I cited Hegarty, and TNB. I'm sure there are others.

And of course some will disagree. Here for instance we have had many pages of discussion regarding, meaning, 'being', communication, intent, process, ranging from the artists to that of the world in general. I think such works as HNW can and do provoke such discussions, rather that the simple Disney aesthetic of 'I like this' 'Well OK but I dont'. Which is why I think there negative content is extremely interesting. It seems to have interested you also, to the extent I was happy for you to have your interpretation, but continue with my own. This you seem to find unsatisfactory. Again all provoked in this case by HNW.

To be even more provocative, i'd say that those who JUST 'enjoy' HNW are missing the massive point of its subject. Meaning, meaningless, being. Like reading Roads to Freedom - just as a novel....

Not saying that's wrong. (see my chainsaw joke) but there is more to HNW than fun.